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Henry Oliver's avatar

This was very interesting. I am happy to believe you are right about Dylan specifically (which is why I lead with those remarks about how it might be a totally justified decision). He might well be closer to Shakespeare! I just happen not to know his work very well (as in: hardly at all), so I can't make my own judgement. It seems more important to me to establish two principles: pop lyrics might (albeit rarely) count as literature; pop music and literature are different sorts of thing. Some people seem to want to pick between those two ideas, but really we are stuck with them both being true. So I think that rap is rap and poetry is poetry but am happy to believe that some sub-set of rap could also be read as poetry. (Interestingly, we are happy to accept that for poetry to become something else, like libretto, it has to be specially produced as such: there's much less anxiety about the question of whether poetry can be both...)

As for whether Dylan's lyrics are therefore a "lesser art" my answer is predictably: I don't know, but probably? Even if you think they are "equal arts", they are still as different as lions and elephants, also two figures of "roughly similar stature".

I agree with you about the talent of people like Dylan. (One thing the future will teach us is how much of their talent relied on performance.) But I don't think that solves very much. We might well extend that to all sorts of talent--scientific, business, great Hollywood producers and directors and actors, etc. I think this returns us to the original argument that these things are incommensurable. Is Ray Kroc as significant as Jimmy Stewart? (Surely he has to be more so if we are playing that game...)

One way to ask the question is to say: "is this work (part of) a chapter of the history of art?" That allows you to avoid some of these problems i.e. to ditch the philosophy and just say, "Yes! Hollywood and the Beatles and whatever else were all amazing works of creative genius!" and to leave the game of asking if one is "as good" or "the same" as another to those who care.

If we have to give an answer though, it seems obvious to me that some artists (and maybe art forms) are significantly more profound than others. If there are people who genuinely believe that the popular art of C20th comes close to what Shakespeare achieved (or whichever other name you prefer), good luck to them. I'd put Noel Coward in the Oxford Book of English Verse but he has't got an inch on Shakespeare either. So Dylan might be as "good as poetry" but, like most poets, I suspect he's still got nothing on Shakespeare, Milton, Homer, Dante, etc. etc. etc.

Lillian Wang Selonick's avatar

Apologies for summoning the horde of belligerent short-fiction-lovers to attack you (although, my feeling is that even this is part of the fun of Substack, at least up until the death threats begin). I think I can understand what you mean about short stories being Type 2 fun, although I think I disagree. I think if a short story isn't fun to read while you're reading it, that means it's not a good story. I feel pleasure reading (good) stories even when they are very much set up with the punchline formula.

I'm not sure if that's a fundamental difference in the way we like to read, or maybe it's more a function of the types of stories I tend to read. I do read contemporary/realist/literary short fiction, but on the whole I think I've read more short science fiction than the former genre. I'm struggling to disentangle my enjoyment of the two types of short fiction. Maybe if I only read New Yorker stories I would feel the same way.

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